The US has just convicted a Canadian of "trading with the enemy" - Cuba. He faces a life sentence.
His crime - selling water purification equipment to Cuba .
The problem is that many of the charges were based on time when he was working for a Canadian company - in Canada.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.S­­ervlets.HTMLTemplate?http://ca.fullcoverage.yahoo.com/­fc/Br­eakingCA/Canada___US_Border/

There are a lot of companies incorporated in Canada that are subsidiaries of other countries.
But companies incorporated in canada are CANADIAN- subject to Canadian law not the law of the parent company .
Think about it - how would you feel if a company incorporated the US - but owned by a foreigner - could ignore US law. You would be outraged.

A few years ago ,it became obvious that this what the US was attempting in Canada - to dictate to CANADIAN incorporate companies what they could or couldn't do. In response Canada passed a law making it ILLEGAL for a Canadian company or citizen to be dictated to in this way,

This guy would have been liable for jail in Canada if he refused to make the sale to Cuba!!!

Watch this one! Canada has been supporting the US in this "war " against terror. That is in jeopardy. This is front page news in Canada - and Canadians are pissed off!

Americans wonder why much of the world (especially Arabs) dislike them.
Well, it's this kind of blind arrogance!

That said that 7 of the 20 counts that he was convicted of occured while he was living in Canada. The proposed sentence was 51 months.

I doubt that things would have been much different if the sentence had been based on strictly what occured while living in the US.

In addition, 2 Americans, officers of the company in question, were also convicted. Although a recommendation has been made relative to sentencing, it could be several weeks before the actual sentence is handed down.

In any case, the lust for a little profit, personal and corporate has these guys in a world of shit!

Any way you cut it, it doesn't appear anything good is going to happen to these guys as a result of the situation.

Sentence hearing is June 28
convicted on 20 of 76 charges
prosecution recommendation of sentences ranges 41-51 months

I'd be pissed if I got charged for doing it from Canada, but he's gotta have shit for brains if you are going to do it while residing in the U.S.

there does appear to some 'selectivity' in which companies are prosecuted for going around the embargo.

These convictions apparently involved less than $100,000 in sales

American cigarettes and soft drinks are in Cuba - usually manufactured in Mexico.

One of the worlds largest beer companies, Interbrue of Belgium, is BIG in Cuba, via Labatts in Canada. Labatts does a relatively big export business to the US.

the big guys get left alone - any relation to campaign contributions?

(if they'd given me the job of beer rep, I wouldn't have said anything) :-)

The Mexican subsidiaries of Coca-Cola, Pepsi and Marlboro (Phillip Morris) etc. don't sell directly to Cuba. Third country suppliers buy those products from the Mexican subs at regular wholesale prices and in turn sell them to the Cuban government. A six pack of Coke costs nearly $6 in Cuba. When they are on sale you can buy 2 twelve packs for five bucks here in the states.

There are a lot of American products for sale in Cuba but they aren't being purchased directly from the companies or indirectly through foreign subsidiaries of the US companies. This case involved direct sales channeled through third countries. US citizens were also on trial and were convicted along with the Canadian.

I'm not defending the embargo or the correctness of the Trading With the Enemy Act, but these guys knew they were violating the law and were trying to hide the transactions by routing them through third countries.

This is an outrage, since:

1. The Hefe de Operacions was a Canadian, _residing_ in the USA. I can see prosecuting the other guys (all Americans), but prosecuting the Canadian? A travesty of justice.

2. As for trying to "hide" their exports (Altahabana #4), how else is somebody going to get things into Cuba? By asking for a license from the US State Dept? Of course they have to use a third country as an export base. The US should have gone after only the Americans, not the Canadian.

3. As wild_bill said, the Canadian was between a rock and a hard place. This argues for the US backing down.

4. If I was king I would have (at worse) prosecuted just the Americans criminally, and fined with a civil action the company they work for, since it is an American based company, but left the Canadian alone. This is another example of the US's (Bush, Sr.) "New World Order", imposing American standards throughout the world. It is well known that the embargo hurts the US politically worse than Cuba economically.

5. Anybody who has resided in the USA and has gone to Cuba and sold their blue jeans would technically run afoul of the American law applied in this case.

Dear Ray: Cuba isn't a big enough market for major US corporations to risk violating the embargo. American products get there very indirectly when they do. That is all I was trying to say.

Hey Alta, that is one big load of crap. You can buy almost ( maybe not cars - yet ) which are in ESSENCE
sold by US companies. Geez, every American brand name in the book is down there in the dollar stores. So who's kidding who. Does it make it right that a wholly-owned subsidiary does the selling ? As someone said, no wonder America is not liked ( if not hated ) worldwide. What hypocrisy !!

Bill (THAT Bill) makes good points.

Canadians generally do NOT get "pissed off".
And they lack a sense of self: it's very disheartening.

One of the few things that can save them from themselves, is--the USA.

A certain bearded commandante uses this kind of thing to nationalist advantage.

Every Canadian Nationalist must want more of this.

...from what I've read

Sales to cuba were USD $2 million
The problem is not that it was a Canadian selling, but a U.S. company selling.........or not doing enough to cover its tracks.

Though, alot of the Uu.s. agri-companies selling legally to cuba after the hurricane are doing it still. sales were supposed to be USD $30 million, but now are approaching $73 million.
Coming soon to havana, 10 million american eggs

american products are expensive everywhere...except in North America......that coke crap sells for $6 for a 1.5 lite bottle and smokes cost you $5 - 7 in china......this in country where average factory wages for 7 day work weeks is $20/month and less in the countryside.

Once again, if a Us citizen went to Canada, and broke the law in Canada, would he not be prosecuted. It doesn't matter where you are from, if you are in another country, you are subject to the laws of that country. Yea, a conviction based soley on activities that occured while a Canadian was living in Canada don't make sense, but once you cross the border, laws change. When the guy moved to Philly, he knew there was risk in what he was doing. He continued, with the support of his American coworkers, all of whom are getting thrown in the pokey. They have screwed up the lives of their families, all over a little personal and corporate profit. However, when you get right down to it, if they get the 51 months as recommemded, they will probably serve 16-18 months, if they behave themselves.

I wonder how the guys will explain the "employment gap" on their resumes when they get out? Now that should be an interesting conversation.

It is unbeleivable how so many people think they do not have to obey US law when in the US. This guy broke US law while he was in the US, what he did while in Canada is irrelevant.
Maybe that is why there are so many Canadians in US jails.
Some even on death row.

From what I've read of the story, and I have been following it, the Canadian was charged for a time when he was living, and working in Canada. He was arrested after he moved to the U.S., but not for committing his "crimes" while on U.S. soil, although he was employed by a U.S. company in Canada.

He faced 20 charges, 7 while in Canada, and 13 while in the US. The person that took over from him in Canada had charges dropped because the Canadian government protested, and the guy did not break US laws in the US. The 7 charges can be appealed but what's the point, it probably would not change the outcome. HE BROKE US LAWS WHILE HE LIVED IN THE US.

Are you sure you're Canadian? Sovereignty is the point, the U.S. has no right trying to enforce their internal laws on a soveriegn country. If he broke U.S. laws while living in the U.S., he will have to deal with it, but Canadians do not live under the (twisted) U.S. legal system!

Wholly owned foreign subsidiaries of US companies aren't selling directly to Cuba. Mexican companies are buying products in Mexico from the Mexican subs and then selling them at marked up prices to Cuba. The transactions and the profits end for the US company and their Mexican sub when the Mexican company buys the product. What the Mexican company does with the product after they buy it is their own business, whether they sell it in Mexico, Belize, Costa Rica, Chile or Cuba. That is why some American products can be purchased at exorbitant prices in Cuba. If you believe that nearly all US products are available in Cuba, then you know something that my wife's family doesn't and are shopping at some places they don't know exist.

Concerning the Canadian citizen (but US resident), ACanuck states it best. This guy violated US law while living in the US and was compensated for his illegal activities. If all of his actions occured in Canada he probably wouldn't have been prosecuted. The law is wrong and it wouldn't surprise me if the Canadian is treated differently at sentencing than his US counterparts.

This all boils down to whether the US policy towards Cuba is morally justified and whether the generic "Trading With the Enemy Act" should be enforced with respect to Cuba. There are any number of South Flordia based companies which violate that law daily, apparantly for political reasons with impunity. It's a disgrace that this guy has had to go through the expense of a trial and the risk of going to prison for a few years because of what happened, but few things in life are fair. I think the best that those concerned can hope for is that his experience will tilt the scales toward a reversal of an anacronistic US policy that is under review.

It's Greek:
ana--back
cHronos--time

More seriously, re the convictions:
I THINK that some of the convictions were for "violations" solely while the guy was NOT in the USA.

The "superior" view of America (the monster, not American individuals) has always held that US law supersedes any foreign commitments--or anything foreign.

Check out thin edges of wedges, slippery slopes, etc.:
The NEXT step will be the conviction in absentia of a foreigner whose "violations" ALL were committed while the foreigner was on foreign soil.

You're all missing the point. Our friend in Philly was quite obviously an "example."
A young father, sucessful, it would seem, in making a living for himself and his family.
Flagrantly waving his dick in front of the embargo?
Perhaps.
Does he deserve life or even a year for selling water purification equipment?
Legally, yes . . .morally?
Not likely.
It's time to put this bullshit behind us. Cubans, are not the enemy of the US. There are plenty of real enemies to go after.

Sorry, Alta, I stand by my point. Those sub's will all or almost all found to be owned by numbered companies ( shall we all think of Enron ?) which in the end trail back to the states - directly or indirectly by shareholders/owners. Do you REALLY think it is Mexicans selling refridgerators, washing machines,
foodstuffs, clothes, shoes, hygiene things , coca cola ...ad nauseum ? NO WAY ! We all know it is Americans, no doubt good, solid, donating Republicans.

And, yes, the real point is the ridiculous hypocritical law. Why don't you guys elect decent human beings, for heaven's sakes ? And Jesse Helms ????? 90 years old still being elected ? I'm sure the Constitution writers would roll in their graves at this nonsense.

You might be correct about very circuitous ties between some major American companies and the foreign corporations which sell to Cuba, but I would be curious to know how you discovered that. What major American appliance manufacturer's products have you seen for sale in Cuban tiendas by the way?

Reading the below posts, I want to remind readers that there was a case in the early 90s, that went to the U.S. Supreme Court, and was decided (swing vote) by Justice Rehnquist, the present Chief Judge, that held: A foreigner, acting alone in his own foreign country, and who never has stepped on U.S. soil, _CAN_ be held guilty of violating American law, _AND_ (this was the novel part, not the above), the foreigner can be _KIDNAPPED_ by U.S. government officials, brought back to the U.S., and tried (and convicted) under U.S. law.

In the interest of fair disclosure, since bad facts make bad law, I should point out that the defendant in question was a reputed Mexican doctor working for the mob who had tortured to death a DEA agent, and the Mexican government either did not, or would not, prosecute him. So the DEA actually kidnapped the guy, forced him over the border, and tried him. Also, after the Supreme Court decided this case, a federal lower court judge released the defendant due to lack of evidence to support murder, but I digress.

The point being, given the above case law, which is still good law today, a Canadian acting solely within Canada can in theory and in practice be held guilty of violating American law because his company is an American registered company _OR_ (since being an American registered company is not a necessary condition) the Canadian entered the U.S. (willingly or, as above, unwillingly) and is thus subject to U.S. laws by being physically present in the USA. Now granted the US Special Forces are not going to kidnap a Canadian businessman to bring him to the US for American style justice, as they probably would a terrorist or drug dealer, but the principle holds nevertheless.

RL


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Are you sure you're Canadian? Sovereignty is the point, the U.S. has no right trying to enforce their internal laws on a soveriegn country. If he broke U.S. laws while living in the U.S., he will have to deal with it, but Canadians do not live under the (twisted) U.S. legal system!

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Concerning the Canadian citizen (but US resident), ACanuck states it best. This guy violated US law while living in the US and was compensated for his illegal activities. If all of his actions occured in Canada he probably wouldn't have been prosecuted. The law is wrong and it wouldn't surprise me if the Canadian is treated differently at sentencing than his US counterparts.

======
More seriously, re the convictions:
I THINK that some of the convictions were for "violations" solely while the guy was NOT in the USA.

The "superior" view of America (the monster, not American individuals) has always held that US law supersedes any foreign commitments--or anything foreign.

Check out thin edges of wedges, slippery slopes, etc.:
The NEXT step will be the conviction in absentia of a foreigner whose "violations" ALL were committed while the foreigner was on foreign soil.

As others have noted, American cigarettes are available everywhere in Cuba. Selling water purification materials was a real threat to freedom, however, because the CIA has determined that Cubans debilitated by smoking and drinking impure water are more likely to rebel. (Also, the water purification company, unlike the tobaco companies, may not have made any contribution to Bush.)

wild_bill--
You are getting all worked up when your post glosses over the fact that this guy broke the law while residing on US soil. Even though the law is ridiculously outdated in the first place doesn't mean that it's OK to blatantly disregard the local law.
And please don't hint that all Americans suffer from such 'blind arrogance.' If you were a serious traveler you would know better than to generalize like that.

Do you have a Canadian flag on your pack? If so, why?